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New Poll - Unknown Gender Pronouns
This week's poll was suggested by Nekomikoto. It deals with scanlator woes and how to translate a character with an unknown gender. Doesn't really apply here, but when addressing a group, I always say "you guys" even if the majority is female.

You can submit poll ideas here
//plantapaper.ru/rap69/showtopic.php?tid=3903

Previous Poll Results:
Question: Do you like reading standalone oneshots at the end of the volume that are unrelated to the main series (i.e., different characters)?
Choices:
No - votes: 1218 (42.1%)
Yes - votes: 1675 (57.9%)
There were 2893 total votes.
The poll ended: June 29th 2019

Almost down the middle. And to all the complainers, I purposely didn't put a "I don't care" option
Posted by lambchopsil on 
June 29th 5:09pm
Comments ( 33 )  
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Comments

» hkanz on June 29th, 2019, 1:16pm

I chose ‘they/them’, but a better option IMO would be to use the character’s name instead of pronouns until the gender is clarified.

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» Transdude1996 on June 29th, 2019, 2:32pm

Quote from hkanz
a better option IMO would be to use the character’s name instead of pronouns until the gender is clarified.

Continuing in my Japanese studies, that's seems to be how the language works by default. Unless you're being casual or rude, you're only suppose to use "you" when you cannot identify the target.

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» hkanz on June 29th, 2019, 5:45pm

Quote from Transdude1996
Continuing in my Japanese studies, that's seems to be how the language works by default. Unless you're being casual or rude, you're only suppose to use "you" when you cannot identify the target.


The poll isn't about addressing someone directly though, it refers to when someone is being talked about, e.g. 'he went to the store'. A scanlator/someone with more knowledge about Japanese could clarify this, but I believe the issue is that in Japanese a name can be introduced in a first sentence and following sentences can be written without names/pronouns, but English requires that name or pronoun... like in Japanese it could be said 'Yukari is my friend. Goes to park on Saturdays. Loves ramen', but proper English sentence structure would require 'Yukari is my friend. She/he/they goes to the park on Saturdays. She/he/they loves ramen.' So the question is what pronoun should be used for Yukari when the gender has not yet been specified. My apologies if this is wrong ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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» Transdude1996 on June 29th, 2019, 9:02pm

Quote from hkanz
A scanlator/someone with more knowledge about Japanese could clarify this, but I believe the issue is that in Japanese a name can be introduced in a first sentence and following sentences can be written without names/pronouns, but English requires that name or pronoun... like in Japanese it could be said 'Yukari is my friend. Goes to park on Saturdays. Loves ramen', but proper English sentence structure would require 'Yukari is my friend. She/he/they goes to the park on Saturdays. She/he/they loves ramen.'

From what I've learned, you are right in how the Japanese language structures itself, but you're thinking about it too much if you think that writing, in English, requires the sentences to always be grammatically correct. Very rarly is English speech actually correct, itself, unless it's prepared before hand. And, even then, incorrect grammer can be used as a tool in writing. During my one year of college, my English professor actually recommended that I make a sentence grammatically incorrect as it added "power" to the paper. But, that's starting to head down a different trail.

Bringing it back to the topic of refering to others, the example you used of how it would be structured in Japanese still sounds "correct" in English even though it grammatically isn't. Stating "Yukari is my friend. Goes to park on Saturdays. Loves ramen." is the type of thing you'd say if you're casually talking about Yukari, or making a list of details, and the reason it "sounds" correct is because it can also be percieved as "Yukari is my friend, goes to the park on Saturdays, loves ramen,...". And, you'd only bring in the pronouns when you need to be more formal or making it a part of an explanation. "She/he/they goes to the park on Saturdays. She/he/they loves ramen." Depending on the context, either way can work, or stating it one way is more preferable than the other.

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» hkanz on June 29th, 2019, 9:38pm

I agree re: your comments on incorrect grammar, but I think we’re getting into the weeds here - while there could be numerous options for rephrasing or taking creative license with grammar, the poll hasn’t provided specific text to discuss, so I’m taking the question as ‘if a pronoun must be used, what should it be’.

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» HikaruYami on July 1st, 2019, 7:01am

Quote
A scanlator/someone with more knowledge about Japanese could clarify this, but I believe the issue is that in Japanese a name can be introduced in a first sentence and following sentences can be written without names/pronouns, but English requires that name or pronoun...


You're not wrong, but even then, the subject will often be reiterated sometimes. Like, it may go three or four sentences like that, but afterwards there might be another sentence that either says "Yukari sometimes plays soccer on Saturdays" or "That person (ano hito) sometimes plays soccer on Saturdays". It wouldn't need to shift to he/she (kare/kanojo) if the author's intent is to leave it ambiguous.

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» Erazen on June 29th, 2019, 5:09pm

My choice would be "Any, according to case".

One should take care when dealing with this problem. Sometimes, the author is deliberately masking the character's gender (let's use the name "A-san" ) to later reveal an opposite gender to the one that we first thought. As we all know, this language technique is unique to Japanese, which doesn't normally use explicit singular pronouns.

Now this isn't always the case. Other times there is no surprise at all, and simply a matter of us not being able to identify A-san in the first place. The key is for the translator to identify whether the ambiguity is deliberate or not, and to preserve the author's intentions. Because each case is unique, it wouldn't be a good idea to rely on only any one of these techniques listed as the default method. For example, the case "can't tell from appearance" is very different to "character has only been mentioned but not seen yet".

Scanlators should use a combination of techniques. One is to mirror the author, for example by using A-san's name when the author does. Another is to rearrange the sentence subject-object-verb order so that A-san is not the subject, or by seizing the opportunity to refer to the unidentified A-san as someone else, like as a group member. Capitalise on those that minimise any opportunity to use explicit singular pronouns at all.

But if one must use a pronoun, use the one the author wants you (or the other characters) to think. Do you know A-san's gender? Should you know A-san's gender by now? How many chapters has it been since A-san's first appearance? Is the situation a gender-bender comedy or a nitty-gritty thriller? Does the author want you think that A-san is a boy to reveal her later as a girl? (Vice versa.) Have you held off long enough on using "he/she/they" ("it" is a no-no unless A-san is a pet or animal) to afford slipping in a pronoun? Or is it safe to use A-san's name again?

"Any, according to case", because as you can see every story is different. "They/them" will ruin a comedy, but may be appropriate for the no-nonsense; conversely, maybe "he/she" risks inciting an English-speaking flame war for such a serious narrative.

Or perhaps ask a native Japanese reader what they think.

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» Nekore on June 29th, 2019, 8:25pm

I answer They/them but was mostly thinking in cases it was deliberately masking, even if sometimes it's just because of sentence structure that you can miss knowing the gender.

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» residentgrigo on June 30th, 2019, 2:26am

None of the above even if the manga isn´t about LGBT+ themes. Just use the name you have and fudge grammar as much as possible while setting an editor´s note. Which remind me. The official German version of HxH misgendered Kurapika in at least the first volume. Hups. So yeah, never rely on visuals with manga. And good luck figuring out which of the Sekiro bosses are women without wiki to give another recent example.

Gender and sex aren´t the same too, so I´ll just link to the obligatory ContraPoints on and call it a day. And watch Pose by FX.

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» KaoriNite on June 30th, 2019, 6:55am

Quote
Just use the name you have and fudge grammar as much as possible while setting an editor´s note.

While I appreciate the effort not to assume gender I feel like this option just makes sentences needlessly clunky. And it doesn't really help when you need to use object or possessive pronouns. i.e. Yukari always takes Yukari's bag with Yukari when Yukari goes to Yukari's mother's house. A sentence like this actual becomes really difficult to understand because one could assume that there are multiple people named Yukari.

So I would say they/them is the best option although it's not grammatically correct. Or even just choosing one of the gendered pronouns and putting a note that the gender is unknown at this time. English is just really frustrating when it comes to these issues.

Quote
Gender and sex aren´t the same too... And watch Pose by FX.
.
Yes and yes.

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» Transdude1996 on June 30th, 2019, 7:14am

Quote from residentgrigo
Gender and sex aren´t the same too

That is true. Gender just applies when you consider whether something nonbiological or nonexistening is masculine or feminine or neutral (Such as with language, not all languages have a "sexually neutral" structure like English does), meanwhile sex is whether a biological being is either male of female (Or a hermaphrodite, as is the case with plants, worms, and slugs).

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» Nekomikoto on June 30th, 2019, 8:43am

Quote from residentgrigo
None of the above even if the manga isn´t about LGBT+ themes. Just use the name you have and fudge grammar as much as possible while setting an editor´s note.


In my case, when I suggested this poll, we never find out the char's name until after the appearance (and can subsequently infer the gender) was revealed. For context, this was a mysterious person in a black robe running around attacking people. 😕 (So addressing by name would not apply). At one point we even had "he escaped!" but we didn't want to use any pronouns until gender was confirmed... (cause it was revealed later that it was a girl) making it sorta tricky to phrase it haha

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» residentgrigo on June 30th, 2019, 1:12pm

You could go with "the intruder vanished" or something like that. Cape comics have a similar issue, where mysteries people constantly show up or stand in the shadows/off panel and are then addressed in the most neutral way possible. Rocksteady´s Arkham Knight just appeared in DC comics canon but turned out to be a teen girl instead of Jason Todd. Here she is:

THIS is a woman below the age of 20. She has an athletic female stature under the suit and uses a voice modulator. The actual character is... whatever and the design is from the game but boy of boi does she look cool.
The female Firefly from Gotham further just came to comics but the writer was upfront about that despite the unisex suit, as she is the protege of the male one. So any day-and-date translation team wouldn´t have run into gender confusion issues there.
DKR 3 lastly starts with Cerry Kelly (now 19) impersonating the semi-retired Batman. See how common all of this can be and I didn´t even need to branch out of Batman canon of the last 3 years! Which reminds me of Mystic. How is one to address her when she turns into a man (she identifies as female but her sexuality is as fluid as can be). Hm.

PS: Mystic was almost Nightcrawler´s father instead of mother but that topic was too dicey for 90s Marvel in the end.

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» vigorousjammer on June 30th, 2019, 3:30am

The only issue with they/them is that it can also be plural, and can add confusion to a script.

i.e. - "They went to the store" could mean both "one person went to the store" as well as "a few people went to the store" depending on the context.

Without that context, it's impossible to know how many people somebody is referring to using "they", so a translator should tread carefully when using it.

A good thing to remember is to use other nouns beforehand which you can refer back to using the pronoun "they"...

i.e. - "Seiji-san left the house earlier. They went to the store."

Singular nouns like "that person" can work, or even just the person's name. Just be sure you understand how pronouns work in English, so you know exactly which noun the pronoun is referring to.

Hope this helps. 😀

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» zarlan on June 30th, 2019, 11:48am

Very much depends.
Use what the original uses
...and if it uses gender neutral pronouns, which English doesn't have: Avoid using pronouns! (if this means fudging the grammar, so be it. Also, where applicable, using the persons name instead, could also work)

I abhor the over-/mis-use of they/them.
Don't use plurals, when referring to individuals (unless you're using a "majestic plural", though AFAIK that is only used when speaking in First Person. Hence why it is more usually known as the "royal we" )

"It" is rather problematic, as it tends to imply that what is referred to, isn't human. Therefore it should be avoided, though IMO it is far preferable, to "they".

P.S. This does rather remind me of Komi-san wa Komyushou Desu., where one person is referred to as "he/she" and occasional a mix of "he" and "she" (often with both "he" and "she" being used, in the same sentence. I wonder what the original Japanese is, on that issue... maybe I'll try to find some raws of the stuff I've already read. I should be able to manage to read 'em well enough).
(both the gender and sex of the person are intentionally kept as a complete mystery)

P.P.S. I get the impression that the distinction between gender identity and physical sex (and how it is the gender identity, and gender identity alone, that determines whether someone is a man or a woman. Not their body), doesn't particularly seem to be one that most people in Japan, even among the LGBT+ community, seem to fully get. I like Japan, but they sure do seem to be significantly behind, on social issues (actually a whole bunch of things, but probably more so on social issues)

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» Transdude1996 on June 30th, 2019, 1:44pm

Quote from zarlan
I get the impression that the distinction between gender identity and physical sex (and how it is the gender identity, and gender identity alone, that determines whether someone is a man or a woman. Not their body), doesn't particularly seem to be one that most people in Japan, even among the LGBT+ community, seem to fully get. I like Japan, but they sure do seem to be significantly behind, on social issues (actually a whole bunch of things, but probably more so on social issues)

Let me see if I'm understanding this right. Japan is "behind on social issues" because they don't accept people being "officially" classified as female when they are biologically male?

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» zarlan on July 1st, 2019, 7:50am

Quote from Transdude1996
Let me see if I'm understanding this right. Japan is "behind on social issues" because they don't accept people being "officially" classified as female when they are biologically male?

I was talking about what the people understand and accept.
Not the official/legal situation.
...but yes:
Refusing to accept that someone with a female gender identity is a woman (be it officially or any other way), is being behind on social issues.
(mind you, when it comes to toilets, changing rooms, showers, and/or ladies/women's categories in sports, I don't really see how gender identity has any kind of relevance, whatsoever. Those differentiations have always been strictly based on physical sex ...and the only reasons and justifications for them, are about physical sex. Not gender)

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» HikaruYami on July 1st, 2019, 7:06am

They/them is increasingly being accepted as a singular pronoun.

So it seems obvious to me that it's the best choice.

The number of people choosing "he/him" is frankly embarrassing.

"It" is actually fine with me; some people would find it offensive but in a manga, the person to be offended isn't real so who gives a fuck.

With that said, I'd prefer to follow the Japanese and just overuse the name and the phrase "that person".

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» zarlan on July 1st, 2019, 8:00am

Quote from HikaruYami
They/them is increasingly being accepted as a singular pronoun.

So it seems obvious to me that it's the best choice.

How is destroying an existing word, the best choice?
I'd be fine with the creation of a new word ...or possibly making "it", not be non-human.
...but using "they", means that "they" becomes a far more vague and very confusing term.
Quote
but in a manga, the person to be offended isn't real so who gives a fuck.

Except that saying "it" about a character, due to them being a member of a group, means that you think one should say "it" about people, who are members of that group.
...meaning that it offends everyone who is like that!
Not just a fictional character.

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» Transdude1996 on July 1st, 2019, 9:35am

Quote from HikaruYami
They/them is increasingly being accepted as a singular pronoun.

Quote from zarlan
How is destroying an existing word, the best choice?
I'd be fine with the creation of a new word ...or possibly making "it", not be non-human.
...but using "they", means that "they" becomes a far more vague and very confusing term.

You can thank the homosexual/tranny/LGBBQ+ community for the butchering of the English language, while also trying to force stuff like "x(h)e" and "z(h)e" to become a thing (Sort of like how furries used to push for "(s)hi" and "hi(r)" several years back). NO, wait, my mistake, they aren't pushing for it, , consequences be damned (, I have even seen the poster myself). Also,

EDIT: Just remembered that Just saw it used in a local paper.

Quote from zarlan
yes:
Refusing to accept that someone with a female gender identity is a woman (be it officially or any other way), is being behind on social issues.

Well, then you should be pleased to know Japan ISN'T behind on social issues because

Quote from zarlan
(mind you, when it comes to toilets, changing rooms, showers, and/or ladies/women's categories in sports, I don't really see how gender identity has any kind of relevance, whatsoever. Those differentiations have always been strictly based on physical sex ...and the only reasons and justifications for them, are about physical sex. Not gender)

Gender doesn't apply to people. It's just the "sexuality" of nonexistence and nonbiological things, such as masculine/feminine/neutral langauge. Now, if you're trying to go with the "new" definition of the word that sprouted back in the 1950s, where it's saying that you "psychological" sex is different from you're biological sex, then you should know that THAT definition came from a , who , , and , and ).

Quote from zarlan
Quote
but in a manga, the person to be offended isn't real so who gives a fuck.

Except that saying "it" about a character, due to them being a member of a group, means that you think one should say "it" about people, who are members of that group.
...meaning that it offends everyone who is like that!
Not just a fictional character.

The character is not real, it shouldn't matter. If you're offended by the work, then either don't read it or grow some thicker skin.

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» zarlan on July 1st, 2019, 11:03am

Quote from Transdude1996
You can thank the homosexual/tranny/LGBBQ+

You use the term "tranny"? Thank you for making it clear, that you're a transphobe.
Quote
/.../for the butchering of the English language, while also trying to force stuff like "x(h)e" and "z(h)e" to become a thing

I don't like those pronouns, but it's at least trying to make a new term (just not even trying to make them sound anything near sensible. Using z? Seriously [AFAIK, no one has proposed anything with x in it, however]), rather than butcher old ones.
Quote
Also, you should see what they're doing to other languages, like German.

You're linking to a, clearly insincere and unserious statement (utterly bereft of facts) made by a member of a far-right racist party (and racists have a tendency to also be transphobes, misogynists, and just generally bigoted, in various ways)
Quote
Well, then you should be pleased to know Japan ISN'T behind on social issues because they've had a law, for the past 15 years, that allows citizens to have their sexual identity changed on official transcripts.

No, because first of all I was talking about peoples attitudes. Not the laws.
...and also, it only applies to people who have gone through sex change surgery, and not any trans people who haven't done so. Basically saying that the person was a man, but then became a woman (or vice versa). That physical sex, rather than gender identity, determines if you are a man or woman
...which is the exact problem, that I accused most Japanese of being guilty of.

Also, as even the article you yourself linked to points out, the law is discriminatory, as it has a mandatory requirement of sterilization. (to be fair, many other countries have similar laws, but still...)
Quote
Gender doesn't apply to people

...
Yeah... that statement and everything that followed, was just lies and misinformation.
There is tons of science proving this.
Not just one single study. A single study doesn't prove shit, by itself.
Especially not that particular study, which is not accepted as valid science by anyone.
Quote
The character is not real

My whole point was that the people who share the relevant characteristic(s) of the character, are real! (...except you don't believe that.)
How you could miss that, I do not understand.
...but then again, I've noticed that bigots tend not to be very bright...

I must say, I expected to maybe see some ignorant comments, but...
The kind of open hate and bigotry, in your comment...
Wow.
Is this even allowed, on the forum?

Edit: No womxn isn't a thing. Some person/group tried to make it a thing, but to say that it hasn't caught on, is a bit of an understatement.

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» Transdude1996 on July 1st, 2019, 12:26pm

Quote from zarlan
Quote from Transdude1996
You can thank the homosexual/tranny/LGBBQ+

You use the term "tranny"? Thank you for making it clear, that you're a transphobe.

I've been using the term tranny for as long as I can remember looking up porn. It was the only way I could find some good futa hentai before I stumbled upon Sadpanda.
Spoiler (mouse over to view)
And, as for all the 3D stuff, I found it disgusting.


Quote from zarlan
Quote
/.../for the butchering of the English language, while also trying to force stuff like "x(h)e" and "z(h)e" to become a thing

I don't like those pronouns, but it's at least trying to make a new term (just not even trying to make them sound anything near sensible. Using z? Seriously [AFAIK, no one has proposed anything with x in it, however]), rather than butcher old ones.

You're born as male or female. There's nothing you can do to change that, unless you consider genetic modification which is it's own can of worms. Besides, what's wrong with being born as a guy or a girl?

Quote from zarlan
misogynists

Of what variety? The "all women are inferior" kind (Which no one actually talks to and is more of a boogeyman than anything else) or the "there are biological differences between men and women" kind (Which does have science to back it, but doesn't mean much in general unless you're pushing the very peak of human performance)?

Quote from zarlan
Quote
Well, then you should be pleased to know Japan ISN'T behind on social issues because they've had a law, for the past 15 years, that allows citizens to have their sexual identity changed on official transcripts.

No, because first of all I was talking about peoples attitudes. Not the laws.

Then you should GIVE UP AND GO HOME because you're never gojng to be able to dictate how every inidividual person views any and all matters.

Quote from zarlan
...and also, it only applies to people who have gone through sex change surgery, and not any trans people who haven't done so. Basically saying that the person was a man, but then became a woman (or vice versa). That physical sex, rather than gender identity, determines if you are a man or woman
...which is the exact problem, that I accused most Japanese of being guilty of.

Also, as even the article you yourself linked to points out, the law is discriminatory, as it has a mandatory requirement of sterilization. (to be fair, many other countries have similar laws, but still...)

If you want to official be recognized as a woman, then why do you need masculine genitals, and visa-versa? The only "trans" people who can get away with being recognized as the opposite sex without any surgery are traps or less-endowed women because they actually put some work into making themselves look like the opposite sex (Though, it's much harder for a guy to dress as a girl than for a girl to dress as a guy). However, even then, I still hear about how majority of transvesites still consider themselves straight as an arrow, and only dress up as a part of a fetish.

Quote from zarlan
Quote
Gender doesn't apply to people

...
Yeah... that statement and everything that followed, was just lies and misinformation.
There is tons of science proving this.
Not just one single study. A single study doesn't prove shit, by itself.
Especially not that particular study, which is not accepted as valid science by anyone.



Quote from zarlan
Quote
The character is not real

My whole point was that the people who share the relevant characteristic(s) of the character, are real! (...except you don't believe that.)
How you could miss that, I do not understand.
...but then again, I've noticed that bigots tend not to be very bright...

No, it's just that I don't tend care when people say offensive things about me because they're either (A) true and I laugh along with them or, (B) false and I laugh along with them or just ignore it because I know it's not true. Besides, a lot of the stuff that goes out of it's way to purposely hurt people tends to be of poor taste in the first place.

Quote from zarlan
I must say, I expected to maybe see some ignorant comments, but...
The kind of open hate and bigotry, in your comment...
Wow.
Is this even allowed, on the forum?

Are you sure this is bigotry and not just a statement of facts and/or opinions that do not align and come into conflict with your own?

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» zarlan on July 1st, 2019, 6:11pm

Quote from Transdude1996
You're born as male or female.

Yes, but whether you are born as a male or female, isn't determined by your genitalia.
Quote
unless you consider genetic modification

That wouldn't, and couldn't, change a persons gender ...or sex, either, for that matter.
Not in any way, shape, or form.
It would appear that you don't really know what genetics is (as well as not really having a clue about gender ...or sex, either, for that matter)
Quote
Of what variety?

The variety that sees and/or treats females as inferior ...which exists aplenty.
Quote
you're never gojng to be able to dictate how every inidividual person views any and all matters.

You have to be able to change every single individual on Earth's view, on a matter, or it's pointless?
I appreciate that you do your best, to be so clear about the fact that you are being utterly disingenuous.
No one, trying to have an honest discussion, would argue like that.
Quote
The only "trans" people who can get away with being recognized as the opposite sex

It's not about being taken as a cisgendered person of that sex. It's about being accepted as being the gender that corresponds with your gender identity.

As for transvestites...
They dress up as the opposite gender, but they don't think of themselves as being that gender. If they did, they wouldn't be transvestites, they'd be transexuals.
...and no, it's not a fetish.
How about you look up information, from proper sources, rather than just porn? ...and racists?
Quote
That entire study is the FOUNDATION of the modern tranny community.

...says you.
Also, the fact that his (deeply immoral) experiment failed, is only further evidence that gender identity is something you're born with, rather than something that is determined by your physical sex or how you're brought up. His views, and those of the trans community, couldn't possibly be more at odds.
Quote
No, it's just that I don't tend care when people say offensive things about me

We're not talking about you, so that claim is completely irrelevant.
Quote
Are you sure this is bigotry and not just a statement of facts and/or opinions that do not align and come into conflict with your own?

Yes.
You insist on intentionally and knowingly use an offensive slur, you cite known racists, you mention "facts" that are clear lies (debunked, countless times), you use dishonest tactics...
There is no question about it.

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» Transdude1996 on July 1st, 2019, 8:08pm

Quote from zarlan
Quote from Transdude1996
You're born as male or female.

Yes, but whether you are born as a male or female, isn't determined by your genitalia.
Quote
unless you consider genetic modification

That wouldn't, and couldn't, change a persons gender ...or sex, either, for that matter.
Not in any way, shape, or form.
It would appear that you don't really know what genetics is (as well as not really having a clue about gender ...or sex, either, for that matter)

I noticed that you avoided one of the questions that seems a little crucial to the argument, so I'll ask it again: what is wrong with being born as a guy or a girl?

Quote from zarlan
Quote
Of what variety?

The variety that sees and/or treats females as inferior ...which exists aplenty.

You didn't answer the question. Women are inferior when it comes to physical aspects such as strength and speed and stress limits, but they are superior when it comes to other physical aspects such as flexibility and agility and endurance. So, again, what variety of "misogynists" are they?

Quote from zarlan
Quote
you're never gojng to be able to dictate how every inidividual person views any and all matters.

You have to be able to change every single individual on Earth's view, on a matter, or it's pointless?
I appreciate that you do your best, to be so clear about the fact that you are being utterly disingenuous.
No one, trying to have an honest discussion, would argue like that.

You were the one who dismissed the existence of a law that a country has just because:
Quote from zarlan
first of all I was talking about peoples attitudes. Not the laws.


Quote from zarlan
It's not about being taken as a cisgendered person of that sex. It's about being accepted as being the gender that corresponds with your gender identity.

Why do you even NEED a "gender identity"? What is wrong with being born as a guy or a girl?

Quote from zarlan
As for transvestites...
They dress up as the opposite gender, but they don't think of themselves as being that gender. If they did, they wouldn't be transvestites, they'd be transexuals.

No, they're still transvestites.

Quote from zarlan
...and no, it's not a fetish.
How about you look up information, from proper sources, rather than just porn?


Quote
Men who practice this behavior are often sexually aroused by wearing female garments which may include bras, panties, corsets, slips, girdles, stockings, shoes and even jewelry. These individuals will often masturbate while wearing clothing or may get aroused from just fondling the items.

Sounds like a fetish to me.

Quote from zarlan
...and racists?

At what point did race even enter the discussion?

Quote from zarlan
Quote
That entire study is the FOUNDATION of the modern tranny community.

...says you.
Also, the fact that his (deeply immoral) experiment failed, is only further evidence that gender identity is something you're born with, rather than something that is determined by your physical sex or how you're brought up.

But, his experiment did demonstrate that your "psychological" sex is the same as your physical sex. Again, I ask, WHAT IS WRONG WITH BEING BORN AS A GUY OR A GIRL?

Quote from zarlan
Quote
No, it's just that I don't tend care when people say offensive things about me

We're not talking about you,

Previously said:
Quote from zarlan
How you could miss that, I do not understand.
...but then again, I've noticed that bigots tend not to be very bright...


Quote from zarlan
Quote
Are you sure this is bigotry and not just a statement of facts and/or opinions that do not align and come into conflict with your own?

Yes.
You insist on intentionally and knowingly use an offensive slur,

Using words to find porn is now offensive?

Quote from zarlan
you cite known racists, you mention "facts" that are clear lies (debunked, countless times), you use dishonest tactics...
There is no question about it.

NBC, Arizona State University, PBS, The New York Times, Wikipedia, and Bustle are racist and dishonest sources that tell clear lies? According to other users here, at least one of those sources is "credible".

thread

» zarlan on July 2nd, 2019, 10:31am

Quote from Transdude1996
I'll ask it again: what is wrong with being born as a guy or a girl?

That question is irrelevant.
Quote
You didn't answer the question.

Yes I did.
I wasn't talking about physicality.
Quote
You were the one who dismissed the existence of a law that a country has just because:

Irrelevant.
Quote
Why do you even NEED a "gender identity"?

You have one.
"Need" has no relevance.
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No, they're still transvestites.

Then your definition of "transvestite", conflicts with that of...
Well, the English language.
Quote

That's your idea of a proper source?
Quote
At what point did race even enter the discussion?

When you cited a know racist, as one of your sources.
Quote
But, his experiment did demonstrate that your "psychological" sex is the same as your physical sex.

He changed the boys physical sex, to prove that he could be made into a girl. He didn't.
As such, his experiment failed.
Also, one person born with a penis, turned out to have a male gender identity (as is the case, in the majority of cases), does nothing to prove that there aren't people born with a penis, who are born with a female gender identity.
Quote
Using words to find porn is now offensive?

Your words here, are not used to find porn.
Quote
NBC, Arizona State University, PBS, The New York Times, Wikipedia, and Bustle are racist and dishonest sources that tell clear lies?

Those aren't your sources.
Not to mention that the sources you actually do cite, generally don't support what you are citing them to say.
The actual sources, for your ideas, however... the type that actually do say the things you claim...

thread

» Transdude1996 on July 2nd, 2019, 11:05am

Quote from zarlan
Quote from Transdude1996
I'll ask it again: what is wrong with being born as a guy or a girl?

That question is irrelevant.

Why are you refusing to answer it? This is THE point that possibly justifies your side of the discussion and gives a reason for why ALL OF THIS is a debatable topic. WHAT IS WRONG WITH BEING BORN AS A GUY OR A GIRL?

Quote from zarlan
Quote
NBC, Arizona State University, PBS, The New York Times, Wikipedia, and Bustle are racist and dishonest sources that tell clear lies?

Those aren't your sources.

Bustle:
NBC:
Wikipedia:
Wikipedia:
The New York Times:
PBS:
Arizona State University:
NBC:

thread

» zarlan on July 2nd, 2019, 9:06pm

Quote from Transdude1996
Why are you refusing to answer it?

As I've said: It's completely irrelevant.
...and we both agree that people are born as a guy or a girl, anyway, (well, aside from non-binary people) just that you argue it's all about physical sex, whilst I (along with the science) say it's about the gender identity in the brain.
Quote
This is THE point that possibly justifies your side of the discussion

Nope.
Quote
and gives a reason for why ALL OF THIS is a debatable topic.

Nope.

As for the sources:
You had not cited those before, so, as I said, those were not your sources
...and they are all irrelevant and/or conflict with your arguments/position, at any rate.

Besides which, newspapers are far from good enough, for these things. Science journalism tends to be abysmal. Also: how is a women's magazine, a proper source? ...or anything other than a horrid abomination? (particularly for women, ironically)

Now stop with the dishonest crap, or I'm not going to bother wasting any more of my time with you ...and I've probably been far too patient with you, already.

thread

» Transdude1996 on July 2nd, 2019, 11:23pm

Quote from zarlan
Quote from Transdude1996
Why are you refusing to answer it?

As I've said: It's completely irrelevant.
...and we both agree that people are born as a guy or a girl, anyway, (well, aside from non-binary people) just that you argue it's all about physical sex,

Are you trying tell me that people born as a girl, or the people born as a guy, are completely inferior in some way, which is the reason why you refuse to answer the question?

Quote from zarlan
whilst I (along with the science) say it's about the gender identity in the brain.

Your "science" tortured infants to the point they were severely traumatized for life, ostracized from all of society, resulted in them making multiple suicide attempts in the years following (With both eventually succeeding), and has effected the lives of hundreds of thousands of people thanks to the publication of a bogus concept. And you want to push this shit further because "It's so sad, but he was onto something"? Any sane person wouldn't even imagine something so disgustingly inhumane.

Quote from zarlan
As for the sources:
You had not cited those before

Have you even clicked on ANY of the underlined texts in my posts? Those are hyperlinks.

thread

» residentgrigo on July 2nd, 2019, 4:13am

User Posted Image
Every single time. Jesus Christ. Get a room you two.

thread

» zarlan on July 2nd, 2019, 10:32am

Quote from residentgrigo
User Posted Image
Every single time. Jesus Christ. Get a room you two.

Every single time?
I don't remember ever having had a discussion with that guy ...or ever having seen him, ever before.

thread

» cmertb on July 3rd, 2019, 7:41am

This is a very interesting question, but a bad poll, as is customary -- all options given are wrong. 🙂 The answer I try to pick personally is "try to phrase in a way that wouldn't require pronouns".

This problem does come up rather often. But in most cases, it's a problem caused by English, which requires you to specify subjects or objects in order to sound natural. So while in terms of the story, the character's gender may be entirely immaterial, in English you have to settle on something.

Let's consider several possibilities related to manga, where most text is dialogue.
1) The gender is known to the speaker, but not known to the reader. In this case, using "it" or "they" is entirely retarded because people don't speak that way of those whose gender they know. Solution for the translator: read ahead to find out the actual gender, or if unwilling or unable, rephrase to avoid pronouns.
2) The gender is unknown to the speaker (provided you are able to tell): this one is easy. You can use "they" or "he" or "she" depending on what kind of social attitude you want to give the speaker. "It" is never an option when talking about people or anyone you need to anthropomorphize for the sake of the story.
3) The actual gender is supposed to surprise the reader later on, and you didn't/couldn't read ahead: you are screwed. Surprises like that are a bane in fan translation.

Out of my sense of paranoia about 3, I try to avoid pronouns as much as possible.

thread

» AldenDegrit on July 4th, 2019, 2:20pm

The poll is clearly missing the "Translate it in a way that pronouns are not used" option.

thread

» Transdude1996 on July 5th, 2019, 7:09pm

Just out of curiosity, what series have actually had to deal with this, and WHAT SERIES DO PEOPLE THINK ARRIVED TO THE BEST CONCLUSION ON HOW TO HANDLE IT?

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